Is Look At The Future of Tourism?


Episode 41 highlights Luka Vukovic and his awesome company, Look At. He talks with Josh about how he plans to disrupt the lucrative tourist industry with his selfie sculptures. No longer do you have to ask awkwardly for someone to take your picture or snap one yourself, this sculpture will do it for you.

We discuss the impact of Covid-19 on Luka’s business and how they are planning to work around any restrictions that come with travel this year. He has a plan for the future of Look At with an amazing web app, new AR features, and an awesome user experience. Visit Look At’s website for more information about this brilliant venture.

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Full Transcript with Luka Vukovic

Josh Barker: [00:00:46] How long have you been working from home for?

Luka Vukovic: [00:00:48] I came from Madrid like three weeks ago and I haven’t been outside for like 20 days. I put myself in isolation because I was in Spain , so I haven’t been outside in like 20 days.

Josh Barker: [00:01:01] Oh my goodness. Wow. Are you staying healthy you and your family and your loved ones?

Luka Vukovic: [00:01:07] Yeah, we are all healthy. Thank God. But there’s few people around my house who got infected. Actually our mayor is from my street and he got infected and also a few more people. And so the place around my houses kind of being smaller and smaller.

Josh Barker: [00:01:27] Oh man. Yikes. well at least you and your loved ones are okay, but, hopefully those around you  will get through it quickly, huh?

Luka Vukovic: [00:01:35] Yeah, I read in the United States. It’s a hard times, especially in New York, in Chicago, you’re in Chicago, right?

Josh Barker: [00:01:44] Yeah, we’re in Chicago, in West Michigan. Both areas are locked down pretty tightly. It’s definitely a ghost town, being outside. There are a few people outside here and there, but for the most part, everyone’s in their houses, not really going outside.

It’s a different world, it’s crazy.

Luka Vukovic: [00:02:02] It’s scary times.

Josh Barker: [00:02:04] Yes. Yeah, it is. Everything’s kind of changing or there’s a new sense of normal. I mean, you, like you said, you’ve been doing this for three weeks. We’ve been probably doing it for the similar amount. So we’re getting kind of used to working from home and, yeah, it’s interesting times.

Luka Vukovic: [00:02:20] Yeah.  I’ve been talking with some people in China and everything seems to be okay there now, so hopefully in two months, everything will be okay here too. So I like to think.

Josh Barker: [00:02:32] Yes, exactly. As long as we can keep the social distancing up kind of distance ourselves from one another for awhile.

Luka Vukovic: [00:02:40] Yeah. The bigger problem is going to be the economy after this. We are definitely heading to recession. I pray to God that there’s not going to be a depression like the one in the United States in 1929.

Josh Barker: [00:02:55] 1930s. Yeah, exactly. hopefully we’re not headed in that direction.

I mean, the nice thing is, I know the government in the United States is just doing everything they can to keep businesses afloat by offering grants and small business loans. A lot of loans and money that doesn’t need to be paid back. They’re trying to really do what they can,  which is good. it feels like they’re trying to react somewhat quickly to it. 

Luka Vukovic: [00:03:18] Yeah. That’s positive. same thing here. So hopefully, we’ll get through this.   It’s going to be interesting.

Josh Barker: [00:03:24] Oh yeah, for sure. Well Luka, tell me a little bit about yourself and tell me a little bit about Look At.?

Luka Vukovic: [00:03:31] Yeah. I’m from Croatia. It’s a small country in the EU. I’m 35 years old, married, and a father of two girls and a boy.  I’m an industrial engineer. I was a top student in my class. So before starting my own business, I worked as a project manager for nearly 10 years for one company that was into mechanical constructions.

And soon after coming up with the idea for selfie sculpture or Look At, I’ve quit my job started my own company and went all-in with Look At. So this was three years ago and now we are here. So, my company is still alive and that makes me happy.

Josh Barker: [00:04:05] When did you start Look At?

Luka Vukovic: [00:04:07] So look at has three years. Look At is a startup company, building next-generation products for tourists. We built the first selfie column sculpture that gets tourists the best possible photo of them in front of an attraction.

It also enables them to have an augmented reality photo to educate themselves about the attraction and also to send the photo. They just snap as an actual postcard worldwide.  We installed the first units last year and had great traction. Additionally, we learned a lot from watching people use our product.

We raised 100K from the U-fund to improve our product based on what they learned. And this is what we were doing in the last eight months. So. It all started with the sculpture. And now we are building a platform around it. A  platform that connects all of our sculptures in a smart city tourist guide that by making it the game for tourists, guides them through a city.

And at the same time, by doing this, it regulates the movement.  This is basically what we are doing and where we were in three years and where we stand now.  Basically I was walking one day back in my hometown, when I saw a couple of tourists, trying to get a selfie in front of one of the city attractions and they were struggling so much.  I remember I was laughing at them, trying to get a good angle. They nearly fell into the sea, looking for a perfect picture. They so badly want it. I thought to myself, there’s got to be a better way for people in the 21st century to get a picture in front of an attraction when traveling.

But there wasn’t because what are the options tourists have? They can ask a passer-by, to take the picture for them. Nine out of 10 times, you won’t be satisfied with that picture because the top of the Eiffel tower is cut off. You need to thank that person that took the picture in the first place. Already you are looking for another person to take another picture for you. There’s always a selfie, which two of these tourists are doing, but when they selfie in front of an attraction, there is always a head in the picture front and there’s little or no attraction in the back.

The only thing they want to have in the picture is the attraction. They’re going to have a memory from that city. And there’s this third option, and this is choosing someone out of your group to take the picture, but then this person gets left out of it. And this is always an awkward moment.

There are a few other options, like using certain gadgets like drones or something like tripods. People can have a personal photographer, but this all takes time. And the thing we want to do is to, help people connect with a city. We want them to enjoy the attraction and not worry about how they’re going to get this picture.

So I was looking at these people and I thought to myself, there has to be an easier way. So I said, what if there was kiosk, like a sculpture or a column or something with a camera already getting the perfect angle so they could connect to this camera. They could have a preview on their own mobile phone and pressing just one button they could have their picture saved to their mobile phone.

This seems like a good idea to me. So I send a blurb to my wife and when got back home, she was like, what was this all about? What did you send me in that message? And I was like, remember when we were in Paris on our honeymoon and how we don’t have a single decent picture from our honeymoon.

There are only pictures with you separated or with me and there’s not a single picture with the two of us together. And this is really it. And I presented the idea to her and she was like, yeah, this idea seems good. This is definitely something that I would use. So we call a few more people. We call my brother, presented the idea to a few more people and everyone seemed to like it.

Than I Googled a lot, trying to find out if there’s something similar already in the world. I didn’t find anything. Then I wanted to make sure the numbers match. I wrote the business plan and the numbers seemed good. And then I said to myself, okay, I’m going to build this device, why not? It’s going to be fun. And this is I get how it all started. 

Josh Barker: [00:08:06] Yeah, that’s good. I mean, I’m definitely in your target audience. My wife and I went on our honeymoon to Hawaii. And it is very similar, right? I mean it’s just the two of us you have to kind of awkwardly ask people, ” Hey, can you take a picture of us” or my wife and I trying to get a selfie and I remember on our honeymoon there was like almost a cliff and I always felt like I was going to fall off the cliff trying to take a picture of us both.

So it’s definitely very valuable, and it reminds me of too, when you’re at an amusement park, right? You go on a rollercoaster, you can go buy your photos. Like, it kind of reminds me of that too. A little bit.

Luka Vukovic: [00:08:36] Yeah. So there are solutions that are kind of similar, but the problem we are solving is we are first of a kind addressing the problem this way.

And you mentioned the cliff, did you know that more than 300 people accidentally kill themselves while trying to take a selfie? People are willing to die for a like on social media or for a perfect picture.

Josh Barker: [00:08:56] Wow. Crazy. I’ve got a look at one of your photos.  It’s a castle and there’s a guy standing there. It looks like augmented reality with some dragons over the top.

That’s kind of cool. So it sounds like there’s a statue with a camera in it. And then, you know, augmented reality is kind of putting the dragons overhead. Is that right?

Luka Vukovic: [00:09:14] So we have a column and we have a tree, we call it a sculpture.

So the one that you saw is, installed in one of the Game of Thrones locations with the dragons as part of our augmented reality because we are trying to add more and more features because we want to separate ourselves from the mobile form.

We want to say, this is the kind of picture that you cannot get with a mobile phone. People like this the most It was a funny thing, the picture with the dragons,  we had like 10% of the people that  enter this location, this fortress to have a picture. And after we put the dragons and we put a sign  in our sculpture that you can have this picture with the dragons, the number of people to take the picture jumped from 10% to 40%. This was amazing. and one thing that we learned along the way.

Josh Barker: [00:10:05] That’s really cool. Yeah,  you’re adding value on top of something. not only is it a perfect angle now it’s an actual feature, like adding the dragons, something you couldn’t get before. So that’s cool.

Luka Vukovic: [00:10:15] Yeah. It’s not just the dragons you can add various historical persons. People from local community, you can add famous persons, you can add sports figures. For example in Chicago, we could put one of our sculptures in front of the Chicago Bulls arena and people could take a picture with Michael Jordan. This will be cool and this is something that adds  value to our product.

Oh, for sure. And speaking of Chicago, what cities are you guys currently in or, you know, testing out?

we are a lean startup, so we’ve installed seven units in Croatia, in Europe , last year.

ut being lean startup, we wanted to completely understand how our product works  in order to scale after  because we wanted to know what our customer wants  before we decided to move forward. And this is why we didn’t do any selling activity whatsoever after we installed this first seven units.

For example, we are testing how people react to the product we were watching. We were observing. One time, I just sat in a coffee shop next to one of our columns and I just watched  the people, you know, going by the whole day. And the thing that I realized was that 80% of the people didn’t even realize that it was there because they mistook it for something else. 

They think of it as the next thing in the street, as part of the environment.  But for the other 20% of the people who actually saw it, 10% of the people actually took the picture. This was important to know for us because now we knew we need to make this 80% of people who didn’t notice it to notice it and to make this 10% of people who noticed it but didn’t use it, to learn why they didn’t use it and to make them use it.

And what we learned is that people have problems downloading the app because in our product first version people needed to download the mobile app in order to use it. And this is sometimes a process that took them three or four minutes if the connection was slow. We had this signup process that they needed to fill in, and this was all hassle for them. 

In our product improved version of which we are building at this moment, we are not going to use a mobile app. We are going to use a web app because web apps now are so developed. They look almost like the mobile app. So people are just going to have to connect on wifi and that’s it. They’re going to have a live preview of their picture on their mobile phone and they’re going to be able to snap a photo and move forward.

Josh Barker: [00:12:55] Very cool. That’s awesome.

Now, you mentioned lean startup. I’m a huge proponent of lean startup. So one of the things that I’m curious about is a lot of times you’ll think of an idea and  if you’re a lean startup advocate like myself, you always think, well, what can I do to test out the idea before I go full throttle building out something that’s sophisticated? Right? So tell me a little bit about your guys is lean startup process of even your first one and how it’s evolved since then?

Luka Vukovic: [00:13:24] Yeah, so this is the thing I was talking about. We built the first product version, like an MVP, and decided to install first time sculptures in four cities in Croatia. I didn’t want to sell any more sculptures.

I just wanted to look to observe how people interact with it. We had this camera and this product that you can take a picture with it. However, it wasn’t a top-notch product. That didn’t bother us. We wanted to learn how people interacted with it. We wanted to do surveys to ask people, what are the features you do like? What are the features you don’t like? Tell me about it. Is there something we could add to the product? 

We were doing a lot of surveys, doing a lot of questioning, observing how people interacted with it. And based on that, we are now building our new product and we are going to present it. We wanted to present it,  in April, but due to coronavirus, I think we need to postpone it. This is something that we do as a lean startup. We put a product on the market, even if it’s not finished, we learn and then we pivot, or we don’t pivot based on the feedback from the customers.

Yeah. How long did it take you to build kind of the first version? Just out of curiosity.

I think it was like a year or a year and two months. The problem was, being industrial with a mechanical engineering background, [I needed help with] the construction part, the kiosk. So I need someone to help me with the electrical part.

Therefore, I find a cofounder. I remember a friend of mine who worked as one of the first engineers in Bella Beat. They are a Y Combinator alumni. I presented the idea to him and he agreed to start working part-time at Look At. So he designed all the electrical components, the camera, and the solar system.

we both knew some programming, so we made a proof of concept that worked. Then I started to sell the product even before it was done. we’ve had first orders, so we needed to speed things up. I raised money from family in France, and then I hired two developers to make our mobile app MVP.

So this was the process that actually took us a year or something. We’ve had a lot of problems with hardware at that time.

 Josh Barker: [00:15:43] That’s quite the startup story, huh?  What’s your business plan of how to make money is that from the locations and the areas themselves, maybe like the cities or is it the municipalities? Who’s actually buying it or are you actually selling the photos as people are looking at them?

Luka Vukovic: [00:15:58] It’s a great question.  We have two models, so we have selling sculptures and we have inner purchases.

In first, we sell sculptures to our customers which are city municipalities, tourist boards, tourist offices, but also hotels, stadiums, kids’ parks.  With buying a sculpture, they are getting also the whole backend platform behind it, supporting it. And of course, our web app, which people use to take pictures.

The exciting part is that we let them keep half of the inner purchase profits so they can make a return on their investment. The second option is where we don’t sell sculptures to a city, but we install it with their permission. In that case, we don’t split the purchase profits with them, but we keep it to ourselves. So these are the two models that we are using.

Josh Barker: [00:16:43] Okay, cool. And what are some examples of

Luka Vukovic: [00:16:46] like the in-app purchases?

Yeah. The in-app purchases are for selling the postcard. There’s an option for people to send natural paper postcards worldwide through our app. From the photo, they just snap. We sell special augmented reality photos.  We have some photos for free, but some photos that are much more advanced. For example, you can take a photo with Steph Curry for free, but you pay for the Michael Jordan photo, something like that. And we have these other options where we sell marketing space in our app. There are three purchase areas. We do it to make money.

Josh Barker: [00:17:28] Awesome. And so you guys are now in the phase where you’ve tested it out, Croatia and things. You’ve kind of been able to take a look and observe and learn really rapidly and figure out what the next iteration is.

And then it sounds like you tentatively were going to go to the market in April with the updated version, but obviously, coronavirus hit and now that’s kind of pushed back a little bit, but then are you looking to release the new version back into Croatia, like in your general area? Or are you looking to continue to rapidly learn in your area or are you looking to more scale and go out to different areas?

Luka Vukovic: [00:18:01] I think that we are close to the perfect market fit. We’ve learned through the last six months, and we’ve learned a lot, to be able to improve our next version, to be close to the market fit, and as you said we wanted to present it this April. But due to coronavirus. I don’t know when we are going to be able to present it. Maybe we’ll present it just on our web page or something.

We want to scale outside Croatia. We’ve already signed a contract with a German distributor, so we are exploring German territory. And also we have a partner, in Dubai. Actually the idea was to present the product in Dubai, but we’ll see what will happen now.  We are working on what we can from home and hoping this ends soon, so we can present our product and move forward. One thing that we wanted to do because we haven’t done any marketing whatsoever, we wanted to film our product’s video to be able to present the product to people.  The biggest problem with this product is people are not aware of it. We need people aware of this product. They need to know there’s something waiting for them at the attraction that can help them have this photo because 80% of people didn’t even realize there was something there.

Which is just different marketing putting this dragon picture, we’ve raised the number of people to use the product from 10 to 50%. And these are the things we want to explore and work out.

Josh Barker: [00:19:31] I’m curious, one question, have you guys tried putting like an LCD screen, that’s more of a live preview where when people are walking by, they kind of go, “Hmm, what’s that?”  Since it’s live, they can see the dragon or they can see what’s happening  and while they might not be in the photo, they can see, “Hey,  it’s actually live.” Have you guys tried something like that? I’m just curious.

Luka Vukovic: [00:19:51] We’ve been thinking about it very much. But the problem with the LCD screen is that it consumes a lot of energy and our product is fully autonomous. It works on solar energy.  We need to be careful about how much energy does it spend. These are the restrictions we are facing now. And we are trying to decide whether we are going to put the LCD or we are not going to put the LCD.

So I don’t know. We’ll see what will happen. We are thinking now about the idea of the product being half on solar energy and half connected to the grid, especially in the areas where there’s less solar energy. For example, in Amsterdam, we are talking with people there. There are times in Amsterdam where there’s no sun for like a month or something. Our product is able to be fully autonomous without the sun’s energy for seven days. And the new product will be able to stand without the sun for 21 days. And they’ll see the time is getting smaller.

Josh Barker: [00:21:01] Yeah. That makes perfect sense.

Luka Vukovic: [00:21:03] LCD is a great idea. Yeah. But the problem is the energy it consumes.

Josh Barker: [00:21:10] What a fun problem to solve.  I always like to think of all these ideas and that’s a fun problem to try and solve.

That’ll be interesting to see how you guys solve it. That’s cool.

Luka Vukovic: [00:21:20] Definitely.

Josh Barker: [00:21:22] Awesome. So, a general question I like to ask everyone too is,  what does innovation mean to you, Luka? Like what does that word mean to you?

Luka Vukovic: [00:21:32] I think the innovation can have different meanings because you can take innovation to mean that someone made the wheel. This is like a huge innovation, but innovation can also be that you built a product that solves a problem in a different way than was the situation before. I think our product is innovative in a way where it addresses the problem in a way that no one did before us. And I think this is the definition of innovation for us. For me.

Josh Barker: [00:22:05] Oh, for sure. I think you guys have drawn a lot of tried and true concepts from it. Like I was saying before about roller coasters or different things like that. It seems like there’s a lot of people, there’s a lot of market for buying those postcards. It sounds like it’s very new and innovative. I’ve never seen it to where, you know, you can do that somewhere like the Eiffel Tower, big landmarks, so to speak or the Empire State Building or whatever.

Luka Vukovic: [00:22:33] Definitely.

Josh Barker: [00:22:33] Very cool. Well, I’m really excited.  I’m sure this is a question everyone asks you, when is it going to come to our city? When is it going to come to Chicago? That’s probably hard to answer with the Coronavirus, but if you were to spitball when are you guys hoping to go a lot bigger with this?

Luka Vukovic: [00:22:49] As soon as possible. I don’t know how to answer this because, given the situation where we stand now with the coronavirus, I don’t know how things are going to evolve. When will the tourists start to be tourists again, when will the airports open again? When real things get back to normal,  I would like to get there as soon as possible.

I don’t know how to answer this question because we have the product ready to scale. We just need to bring it there. I think this is the only thing.

Josh Barker: [00:23:23] Now on your original plan, if the coronavirus hadn’t happened, what was your original plan to kind of scale-out?

Luka Vukovic: [00:23:29] So, the plan was the first scale in Europe. So Germany was obviously our first country to scale. Then some other countries in Europe, around Croatia and the United States and the South American market, which is also very interesting for us was the second market to expand to. So, if things were normal, I think maybe by the end of this year or beginning of the next year, we will have these sculptures in your city, but now we’ll see how things are gonna move.

Josh Barker: [00:24:07] Yeah. Things are a little bit crazy. They’re a little different now. 

Luka Vukovic: [00:24:11] Yeah, definitely.

Josh Barker: [00:24:14] I love your product idea. I would definitely be a customer of yours. Anything else you would want to talk about or navigate the conversation towards?

Luka Vukovic: [00:24:23] We can talk about the platform we are working on now because the sculpture is just part of what we are trying to achieve.

We are trying to build a next-generation tourist guide. So we want to connect all of our sculptures in one city so they can make a tourist guide that drives tourists through the city, which educates tourists. We’re giving them interesting information about a city that they couldn’t easily learn in Google, but the information only a local would know. We want to connect the city and tourists on a whole deeper level.

There’s this problem that we also try to solve and that we realize along the way. This problem is that cities have huge issues with tourists blocking the most iconic tourist attractions. There are so many beautiful places in a city that no one knows and the city wants to promote these places.

We want to make a game for tourists so we can move them from these crowded locations, these iconic locations to the ones that people don’t know, but city wants to promote them. We want to do that by making it a game for tourists by using a gamification process. So for example, after they take a picture at one of the locations, they can take our mobile app and they can choose from the different routes we suggest to them. Because we know at this part of the day you need to take this route because there are fewer people here or you need to take this route at this time of the day. And so people could explore the city,  take pictures, posting them on social media along the way.

And while doing this, they are blocking you the most visited attractions and at the same time posting the pictures, they are promoting them. Cities have huge problems with this. There are some cities, they were thinking about doing a ticketing system for entering certain parts of the city.

For example, Venice tried to do that and this is a problem. No one knows, but it’s very real.

Josh Barker: [00:26:34] Oh, I bet. I mean, that makes a lot of sense. that’s fascinating actually because when I go into a new place, I want to know, and I want to go to these different places, but I’m not super savvy on the area. And obviously it would be great to have an app that not only can guide me, but I can take great pictures.  we’ve played this like a game as a team, we have what’s called team week. We’d have to kind of run to different locations and take pictures. And, who could take the most pictures wins. And you’re almost gamifying that process.

Luka Vukovic: [00:27:02] Yeah. This is what we are trying to do. So take pictures here, collect points or hearts or something. And if you get 50 hearts, you get a discount at the final location, or you can enter, they find a location,  without waiting in the line or something like that.

What we are trying to do. We are still thinking about it, but we started to build this because we already have a backend platform. We own the only thing we need to connect. All of our sculptures, check the data from every unit number of people that take pictures. And by doing this, we can create patterns.

According to these patterns, we can make estimates and offer the best routes to tourists. 

Josh Barker: [00:27:44] That sounds like a great idea. And I bet you,  a person in a segment that’s going to just love your idea is going to be those local businesses by those landmarks that maybe aren’t as well known because it’s going to drive more traffic to their businesses. That’ll be  a good thing for them.

Luka Vukovic: [00:28:02] we then can leverage from solving this problem because moving people from  this most visited locations and moving them towards this locations that are almost as beautiful, but no one knows about and the city wants to promote them.

We are also promoting these, as you said, businesses that are aside from the most crowded areas. So we can also have them pay us  to do that. This is also one of the models how we can make money out of it.

Josh Barker: [00:28:35] Yeah, that’s awesome.  it  reminds me  of  the app , it was really popular at one point.

I think it’s still out there as a four square. Is that right? Like four square checking into different locations except you’re literally getting your picture taken.

Luka Vukovic: [00:28:46] Yeah. Yeah. So we are adding another feature.  Go to these locations, have a great pictures, pictures in augmented reality, learn about the location,  and post your picture on the social media with the hashtag the city wants  to do that with. move forward to the another location. And along the way, you are collecting points, which you can use for entering another location or entering the city museum or whatever, you know?

Josh Barker: [00:29:14] Yeah. And I’d love that app,  not even fully from a sense of getting points and stuff and being able to redeem them in that specific location.

Like if I was in Mexico or wherever I was, I love it from a standpoint of when I left Mexico or wherever I left, I could still catalog  all my pictures that I could go back to.  is that some of the ideas as well to say, “Oh, we went here and here and here.” And I can  log back in and see all those memories.

Luka Vukovic: [00:29:40] The idea is, although we haven’t started to work on this yet, is to make a  social network for tourists,  like LinkedIn for tourists. So you can log to your account and see all the places you’ve been, see all the places where other people have been, your friends. You can compare the places, compare the pictures. You can like the pictures. And this is some, idea we are moving towards.

Josh Barker: [00:30:09] Very cool. Awesome.

Luka Vukovic: [00:30:13] Thank you.

Josh Barker: [00:30:14] Well Luka anything else? That was a great addition. I appreciate you making sure you hit on that because  that is a  bunch of value you guys are adding on top of  your service itself or on top of the actual physical devices. Anything else you want to add or highlight?

  Luka Vukovic: [00:30:29] Yeah. During the summer, we plan to raise our seed round, which makes us very excited. All the proceeds we plan to spend on marketing and sales. So we can hit our goal of selling 100 units in the next 18 months and the reaching 2 million in revenue. This would set us a perfect foundation for the A round and bigger expansion.

 We have a product that tourists love and that gives an extra value to the location, and I believe we’ve upgraded it to be a perfect market fit. So, if you want to disrupt the selfie industry with us, or be a part of our journey in anyway, let’s connect.

Josh Barker: [00:31:01] Very cool. That’s awesome. Some great traction you guys have got there. Yeah. Thank you.

Luca, it’s been a real pleasure. I really appreciate you coming on and talking about, look at. It’s a very cool thing. I’m excited for it to come to Chicago.  I really want to start using it.

Luka Vukovic: [00:31:15] I can’t wait. I want to install one of the first sculpture in front of the Chicago Bean or in front of the Chicago Bulls Arena would be Such an accomplishment for us to go to Chicago, to Chicago and to, you know, install one of our sculptures there.

Josh Barker: [00:31:31] Awesome. Very cool. Well, thanks again for, for coming on, ask an innovator. It’s been a pleasure. Thanks for your time, Luca.

Luka Vukovic: [00:31:39] Thanks for having me. Thanks for having me. It was pleasure talking to you.

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